Curse

Marus Varrus · May 24, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

One piece of the new item that I have not seen comments on is that the traders now will more accurately reflect the supply and demand. I believe this might mean that the npc trader when now actually have a sig to sell. Many times the npc would just no have any avaiable. Black dye would be a good example--everyone sells these to players as opposed to the trader because you can always make a profit yet the trader always has some available even if they have a high price tag. If the NPC trader always had an available supply that would regulate the supply side at least to the point of being a fairly reasonable amount.

sama · May 24, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

I personally think that having more guilds capable of having a hall would increase competition. My guild has 35+ people and usually have 6-8 on at any one time. Getting together for a scheduled event would be easy... but until I get a hall it doesn't matter. Personally if my team starts to win and I have more gold than I can use I will give sigils away.

yea, see...increasing quanity of guilds doesn't increase the quality of the ladder. There's still fundamental flaws with the ladder system as it is. Like, scheduling matches, not every guild has 35 members to always have 8 people on. And why do matches have to be scheduled? If you have 8 people on you should be able to gvg if you wish. That isn't the case for the high rank guilds. Hence the starting of multiple guilds. The competition in tombs in pretty weak compared to BWEs and the competition on ladder is weaker.

And if you have 35 ppl, how hard is it for each member to give 3k? How long does it take to get 3k? 10 mins or less...

Also, I don't see how it's my responsibility or the responsibility of sigil winners to give out sigils to the needy. Right now, I need weapon modifer and runes, so I trade my sigils for 3-5 pieces of yellow unidentified rare items.

Ensign · May 24, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

I liked the sigil mechanic as a form of PvP rewards - a PvE guild should be pharming massive amounts of loot anyway, and the PvP guilds just have a bunch of sigils from their wins, and there's your basis for an economy between the two groups.

Why these PvE guilds, which I have to imagine have sizable memberships, cannot afford a sigil, I cannot understand. If your guild collectively cannot come up with 100k for a sigil after a month of playing the game...well, do I even have to finish that sentence?

I agree with sama that the lack of sigils has not influenced the ladder at all. Guilds that cannot win a sigil have zero business competing for a top spot on the ladder. All that adding sigils will do is add more gunk to an already crowded middle/bottom of the ladder.

GvG is seriously lacking at the moment. As it keeps a running record and goes onto a global ranking it's something that I want to take seriously and put a best effort towards - but once we have put in that effort, we end up waiting 20 minutes to fight some terrible guild with 3 henchies. Plus what's the reward for doing well in GvG? A high ladder ranking a webpage the vast majority of the playing population doesn't know about?

Tombs may be a bit more random, but you at least get games. Plus, when you're winning, you actually accumulate wealth and, more importantly, broadcast your winning across the entire Guild Wars universe. Stand around to win a GvG match, and no one notices. Go on a tear in the hall, and people start messaging you with congratulations and asking what you're running.

The level of competition argument applies only to guild challenges. There are maybe half a dozen guilds worth fighting one on one right now, and again unless you're going to organize a game with one of them in GvG you're not going to accomplish much more than milling about in the guild hall. If you want a bit more than that, like, oh, fame and fortune, go play Tombs until the ladder has some incentive to climb.

Peace,
-CxE

iotc247 · May 24, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Ensign not all of us pve players are in guilds that farm. Some of us just play and if we find something we keep it. I dont waste my time searching for items and runes. I have better things to do. But if i have a guild and we want meetings why should we be forced to farm for that? We should have to complete something like a quest which is pve styled to get it. Farming isnt pve questing/missions are.

chalt2 · May 24, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by iotc247

Ensign not all of us pve players are in guilds that farm. Some of us just play and if we find something we keep it. I dont waste my time searching for items and runes. I have better things to do. But if i have a guild and we want meetings why should we be forced to farm for that? We should have to complete something like a quest which is pve styled to get it. Farming isnt pve questing/missions are.

Look, there is no right or wrong on this issue and we rehash it over and over again, PvE and PvP are 50% partners in this game and YES you can cry foul and say its not 50% but bottom line is that AN's intentions are that it is, so it is. If you have YOUR personal views that its something else or your tunnel vision from your side clouds the big picture then thats too bad.

This topic is an insight to the problems we face in the world, everybody wants it the easiest, quickest, no work involved in getting it, give it to me for nothing way they can something.

Dreamsmith · May 24, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

yea, see...increasing quanity of guilds doesn't increase the quality of the ladder. There's still fundamental flaws with the ladder system as it is. Like, scheduling matches, not every guild has 35 members to always have 8 people on. And why do matches have to be scheduled?

They need to be scheduled because there aren't enough GvG capable guilds. Breaking it into divisions would only make it worse by making the pool of people you can play against even smaller.

If you want higher quality GvG, you have to have more people actually doing it. People aren't going to get better at it by waiting on the sidelines; most people learn best by doing. The longer you prevent a large quantity of people from engaging in GvG, the longer it's going to take for the quality of GvG to improve.

Eternal [ZEN] · May 24, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

I don't mean to bring this up again but part of the reason there is no much competition right now is that you need to PvE if you want to PvP. I have some RL friends (and I'm sure the same thing is happening all over the place) that are very good players and would probably become fierce GW players in short-time. But how am I going to talk them out of Counter-Strike to come kill sand worms?

Fate · May 24, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

I see a common weakness in the arguement about the prices of sigils. There is a simple aspect that many overlook:

Making a guild is hard. It costs 2k and you need to actually have some people to join otherwise you're just wasting your time.

Sigils are needed for a guild hall. Sigils cannot be obtained until you're at the end of the Ascension.

Ergo, being a guild leader requires that you have experience not only with the game but also with dealing with people.

Making sigils rare seems like a good idea to me. It promotes teamwork among players and often reveals who is actually mentally strong enough to be a leader.

Everyone whines and complains and moans about "But I want a guild hall now!" Why? Why do you need it so badly? Why do you care so much? Deal with it, become a better player, actually get a character to lvl20 and the ascension.

Edit: You know, you can always fight in the arenas before lvl20 and gain experience that way. You don't really have to do all that much fighting npcs if you really didn't want to.

Lasher Dragon · May 24, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate

Everyone whines and complains and moans about "But I want a guild hall now!" Why? Why do you need it so badly? Why do you care so much? Deal with it, become a better player, actually get a character to lvl20 and the ascension.

What does Ascending have to do with Sigils?

iotc247 · May 24, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

Look, there is no right or wrong on this issue and we rehash it over and over again, PvE and PvP are 50% partners in this game and YES you can cry foul and say its not 50% but bottom line is that AN's intentions are that it is, so it is. If you have YOUR personal views that its something else or your tunnel vision from your side clouds the big picture then thats too bad.

This topic is an insight to the problems we face in the world, everybody wants it the easiest, quickest, no work involved in getting it, give it to me for nothing way they can something.

Where did i say I want it handed to me? I said id rather have a quest that guild members must complete together in order to get the sigil. It would be much more effective. Of course the quest must be redoable if you join another guild.

Lasher Dragon · May 24, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by iotc247

Where did i say I want it handed to me? I said id rather have a quest that guild members must complete together in order to get the sigil. It would be much more effective. Of course the quest must be redoable if you join another guild.

That sounds awesome... have some ass-kickin, 5-hour long quest in the Underworld that can get you a Sigil.

sama · May 24, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

They need to be scheduled because there aren't enough GvG capable guilds. Breaking it into divisions would only make it worse by making the pool of people you can play against even smaller.

If you want higher quality GvG, you have to have more people actually doing it. People aren't going to get better at it by waiting on the sidelines; most people learn best by doing. The longer you prevent a large quantity of people from engaging in GvG, the longer it's going to take for the quality of GvG to improve.

hmm, the topic of this post is about whether or not anet's response to the sigil issue is going to resolve anything. Personally, I don't think it will help alleviate much, and certainly won't improve the quality of the ladder. Why? Because lack of sigils isn't the main problem or even a top 10 problem of why the ladder is so broke.

About your last statement, well it would seem that your opinion is different from mine. I know how little there is to gain in trying to change the opinions of another (especially an individual over the internet).

Sadye X · May 24, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I liked the sigil mechanic as a form of PvP rewards - a PvE guild should be pharming massive amounts of loot anyway, and the PvP guilds just have a bunch of sigils from their wins, and there's your basis for an economy between the two groups.

Why these PvE guilds, which I have to imagine have sizable memberships, cannot afford a sigil, I cannot understand. If your guild collectively cannot come up with 100k for a sigil after a month of playing the game...well, do I even have to finish that sentence?

It does seem fairly clear that it was intended that sigils would be traded with / sold to other guilds who may have taken a less direct route to the HoH via spending time in pve.

The issue is though, most guilds that I know of are of a moderate size, having players ranging in levels etc. My guild [KaW] purposefuly keeps it's membership at or around 20 members, mainly because we want our pvp abilities to be focused, and have the ability to know one another's strengths / weaknesses and have a more solid basis for our pvp / gvg teams.

I think it's somehow assumed though, that pve players are running around with tons and tons of gold to put into buying a sigil, and quite mistakenly so or else there'd not be an issue with the current prices to begin with.

When the average ( doesn't create a w/mo alt to specifically farm for hours on end ) pve player reaches ascension / tombs, more often than not they barely have enough gold to purchase their level 20 armor set. You have to take into account that unless you *do* spend hours farming, most pve players also have to buy weapons / upgrade components / runes along the way as well. As a nec at level 20, I can tell you from experience that there's simply no way for the majority of class combos to make 3 plat in 10 minutes. The only time I ever made that much in that little time was by selling steel ~ steel that it took me nearly a week of exploring to gather

Again, it's common knowledge that prices of sigils are simply getting far out of hand. You want a more developed gvg ladder ? How about allowing more than a handful of guilds actually be a part of the game's primary focus ? And you can make all the comments about guilds winning the HoH deserving all the sigils they can farm ... but don't forget that it takes just as much skill / teamwork for a guild to start from lvl 0, do all the missions and work their way to the HoH without creating farming w/mo alts to buy items etc.

All guilds deserve the chance to compete in gvg ... and until they can the only ones you can blame for a *stagnant* ladder are the ones who keep them from doing so.

Corwin_Andros · May 24, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

The way I see it, the only way this is going to make any difference is if some of the smaller guilds that had to bust their asses to get that 100k together to buy a sigil in the current market, win in HoH and sell off their winnings to the trader or at FAIR prices out of a sense of indignation. The people currently being greedy will remain that way.

Otherwise all its is really going to do is give the weenies selling sigils on Ebay in quantity even more to sell for real cash. It'll also give the larger guilds that win a lot of them now the ability to spread out the winnings among themselves for a while and keep an in-game stranglehold on the market.

The best way to deal with this is make sigils be untradeable to other players. Either the winners of a sigil would have to use it themselves, sell it it off to the trader for a good price (like 15k or so), or trash it.

This simple step would do several things all at once. It would stop any of the situations like I saw in another thread where a team with the majority of the players wanted to roll for the sigil when the random drop didn't go in their favor. It would completely put a halt to selling them on EBay. It would stop the damned price gouging and hoarding now taking place. And finally it would make either winning HoH or buying from a trader the only options to get a sigil.

WHile I'm sure someone would find a way to get around all of this, it would in effect put all of the current problems to rest.

Nash · May 24, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Great, PvEer start whining and ArenaNet does something.
PvPers have to grind the whole game several times over, and they do nothing.

I'm not selling my sigils, I just want to collect them so they're out of the market, let the PvEers come to Hall and get 'em, make them play PvP and see how fun it is to play a part of the game you don't like just to get stuff.

Sadye X · May 24, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Great, PvEer start whining and ArenaNet does something.
PvPers have to grind the whole game several times over, and they do nothing.

I'm not selling my sigils, I just want to collect them so they're out of the market, let the PvEers come to Hall and get 'em, make them play PvP and see how fun it is to play a part of the game you don't like just to get stuff.

It sounds to me like perhaps you're misunderstanding the issue here.

Currently, the gvg ladder and the majority of HoH wins are held by guilds who's obvious focus is that part of the game which of course makes sense. But the vast majority of those players are *also* no doubt hardcore players, spending far more than twice the amount of time than the average player, as well as having what you might call a *head start* on things via playing all the beta events and thus having a better understanding of the game mechanics etc than the majority of players as well.

Most guilds do indeed want a sigil for the express purpose of experiencing GvG ~ the main purpose of the game in the first place. They might also happen to enjoy going through the explorable areas / missions etc to get there, but don't see the need to turn what should be a fun ( it *is* a game afterall ) experience into one of monoteny and boredom via spending countless hours of farming etc. along the way to the HoH.

True people *only* interrested in pvp do need to spend some time in pve to gain skills / items / runes ... but are you saying that otherwise you want an *out of the box* no work involved pvp experience / enviroment ? And that would be fair to people / guilds who *want* to go through pve to earn their way to the HoH / obtaining a guild hall how ?

And for anyone who questions weather or not sigils are being hoarded ... well here's your proof

Ensign · May 25, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote: